Nobiliary Particles in reports

reesjel
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Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:00 pm

Nobiliary Particles in reports

Post by reesjel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:03 pm

I use Dutch names in Heredis and a lot of Dutch surnames have [s] prefixes [/s] nobiliary particles such as 'van' 'de' 'van den' etc.

When I insert a surname with the [s]prefix[/s] nobiliary particles in the prefix field, whenever I create a report, the prefix gets placed after the surname.

For example:
A man's name could be 'Martin van Buren', 'Martin' would be his given name, 'van Buren' would be his surname.
If I'm not mistaken, in Heredis I should add the 'van' to the Prefix field.
In Heredis it would look like this:
Given name: Martin
Surname: Buren
Prefix: van

Which is fine when inputting data, however, when I create a Book the prefix shows after the Surname. I've tried every setting I was able to find under the 'Persons' field when creating a Book report. I choose the Surname Style 'William of HATFIELD', (including suffix) assuming this would result in a report consisting of a naming convention that would show Marin as 'Martin van Buren', but instead it shows as 'Martin Buren van'.

What is the best way to insert surnames such as 'van Buren' into Heredis to make sure the reports I generate also come out with the surname intact. I currently have opted to just include the Dutch [s]prefixes[/s] nobiliary particles in the Surname field itself, cause it seems that the Prefix in Heredis is used differently for names versus how I interpret it. However, if the prefix field is the proper field to use for 'van' I rather use that option because it'll help sort the names properly as well (in Dutch a name like 'van Buren' would be found under 'B', not 'V' when putting them in alphabetic order)
Last edited by reesjel on Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mike
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Re: Prefix in reports

Post by mike » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:29 pm

Have you tried in Surname (all in low case when you key in)
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Sincerely.
Mike

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reesjel
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Re: Prefix in reports

Post by reesjel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:54 pm

mike wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:29 pm
Have you tried in Surname (all in low case when you key in)
That's what I do now, but only one prefix will stay lowercaps, if I have a name that's 'van den Buren' for example, it'll show as 'van DEN BUREN'. My workaround at the moment is that I adjust this in the Surnames Index and choose to 'Handle Characters Manually'. They'll still sort the name as a 'D' instead of a 'B' though.

I know workarounds, but if there's a way that the prefix section actually works in the reports like it seems it should, a workaround shouldn't be necessary. I will keep on using my workaround and skip the prefix altogether if the reports keep adding them at the end of a name.

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mike
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Re: Prefix in reports

Post by mike » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:02 am

reesjel wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:54 pm
if I have a name that's 'van den Buren' for example
For this 'multi word' "van den" use a 'breaking space' (ALT+0160) between "van" and "den" ...
Sincerely.
Mike

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reesjel
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Re: Prefix in reports

Post by reesjel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:45 pm

mike wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:02 am
For this 'multi word' "van den" use a 'breaking space' (ALT+0160) between "van" and "den" ...
I tried this but it changed the surname into all caps so I still had to choose 'Handle Characters Manually', which in turn resulted to the surname being sorted by 'V' instead of 'D' but ideally it should actually be sorted by ' B' in the Surname Index.

Thanks for trying to figure this out with me, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick with my current workaround :(

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mike
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Re: Prefix in reports

Post by mike » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:02 pm

reesjel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:45 pm
I tried this but it changed the surname into all caps so I still had to choose 'Handle Characters Manually'
I fell to be understood :?
Could you show what you obtained in the "Surname" field by these actions ?
Sincerely.
Mike

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reesjel
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Re: Prefix in reports

Post by reesjel » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:20 pm

mike wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:02 pm
I fell to be understood :?
Could you show what you obtained in the "Surname" field by these actions ?
I have too many names to properly show with a screenshot so I'll outline it below, please note that my settings mean that all surnames are in capitals by default)

1. In Dutch, surnames that include van de/van der/ van 't, etc. are sorted by the name that comes after these prefixes, example, 'van den Buren' would be sorted under 'B', with 'van den' in small caps. Outlined below is how it ideally should be sorted (van den BUREN):
  • ANDERSON
    van 't BEL
    BENNET
    van den BUREN
    CARSON
    JOHNSON
    van KRIMPEN
    LOWENSTEIN
    SMITH
2. When I fill in the surnames in the Surname field, without choosing to 'Handle Characters Manually' the second prefix will be automatically written in all caps (van DEN BUREN), the sorting results in the following:
  • ANDERSON
    BENNET
    CARSON
    van DEN BUREN
    JOHNSON
    van KRIMPEN
    LOWENSTEIN
    SMITH
    van 'T BEL
3. When I fill in the surnames with the alt action after the prefixes, without choosing to 'Handle Characters Manually', the full name will be written in all caps (VAN DEN BUREN), which results in the following sorting order:
  • ANDERSON
    BENNET
    CARSON
    JOHNSON
    LOWENSTEIN
    SMITH
    VAN 'T BEL
    VAN DEN BUREN
    VAN KRIMPEN
4. When I fill in the surnames without the alt function and enabling the 'Handle Characters Manually' (van den BUREN) it results in the following order:
  • ANDERSON
    BENNET
    CARSON
    van den BUREN
    JOHNSON
    van KRIMPEN
    LOWENSTEIN
    SMITH
    van 't BEL
This 4th version is essentially the same as the second, only visually the name is written correct.

In none of these options I've used the prefix field, because I already established that using the prefix field resorts into issues when creating reports, which was the issue intially and that's why I'm now using the 4th method as the best option out of what's possible, because, that way at least in the profiles the names show correct as well as in the reports. Only in the index it isn't user friendly.

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mike
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Re: Prefix in reports

Post by mike » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:57 pm

I think it becomes clearer …

Ok for the point "1"

Let's take your example where the multi-word nobiliary particle "van den" is used in "van den BUREN :
- in point 3 you should key in "van[ALT+0160]den buren", but not "van[ALT+0160]den[ALT+0160]buren"
- it is a normal 'space' between the whole particle (be it multi-word or single word) and the Surname itself (buren)
- visually, you will then end up with "van den BUREN" and a sorting under "B"


This being done, Heredis will properly recognise "van den", "van der" and "von der" as multi-word nobiliary particles ; "van 't" is not recognised as such a particle

Is it better now ?
Sincerely.
Mike

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mike
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Re: Prefix in reports

Post by mike » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:08 pm

Forget what I just said …
I wrongly thought you are using a Mac ! ! !

I'll come back for PC :oops:
Sincerely.
Mike

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reesjel
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:00 pm

Re: Prefix in reports

Post by reesjel » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:15 pm

mike wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:08 pm
Forget what I just said …
I wrongly thought you are using a Mac ! ! !

I'll come back for PC :oops:
Haha, no worries, I actually had tried that as well and it didn't work. I'm thinking of possibly upgrading to 2018 as well, any idea if it'll work there on PC?

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